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Author Topic: New Security Rules for Driver's Licenses  (Read 19721 times)
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« on: January 11, 2008, 04:25:50 PM »

  New Security Rules for Driver's Licenses
Posted by: "George Daniel" Doer77@juno.com   doer_777
Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:58 pm (PST)

New Security Rules for Driver's Licenses

Thursday, January 10, 2008 8:28:29 PM -- By DEVLIN BARRETT

From -
http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews%5CTop%20Headlines%5C\20080111%5CSecure_Driver_s_Licenses_20080111.xml&cat=topheadlines&subcat\=&pageid=2<http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews%5CTop%20Headlines%5\C20080111%5CSecure_Driver_s_Licenses_20080111.xml&cat=topheadlines&subca\t=&pageid=2>

Americans born after Dec. 1, 1964, will have to get more secure driver's
licenses in the next six years under ambitious post-9/11 security rules
to be unveiled Friday by federal officials.

The Homeland Security Department has spent years crafting the final
regulations for the REAL ID Act, a law designed to make it harder for
terrorists, illegal immigrants and con artists to get government-issued
identification. The effort once envisioned to take effect in 2008 has
been pushed back in the hopes of winning over skeptical state officials.

Even with more time, more federal help and technical advances, REAL ID
still faces stiff opposition from civil liberties groups.

To address some of those concerns, the government now plans to phase in
a secure ID initiative that Congress passed into law in 2005. Now, DHS
plans a key deadline in 2011, and then further measures to be enacted
three years later, according to congressional staffers who spoke to The
Associated Press on condition of anonymity because an announcement had
not yet been made. DHS officials briefed legislative aides on the
details late Thursday.

Without discussing details, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff
promoted the final rules for REAL ID during a meeting Thursday with an
advisory council.

"We worked very closely with the states in terms of developing a plan
that I think will be inexpensive, reasonable to implement and produce
the results," he said. "This is a win-win. As long as people use
driver's licenses to identify themselves for whatever reason there's no
reason for those licenses to be easily counterfeited or tampered with."

In order to make the plan more appealing to cost-conscious states,
federal authorities drastically reduced the expected cost from $14.6
billion to $3.9 billion, a 73 percent decline, according to Homeland
Security officials familiar with the plan.

The American Civil Liberties Union has fiercely objected to the effort,
particularly the sharing of personal data among government agencies. The
DHS and other officials say the only way to make sure an ID is safe is
to check it against secure government data; critics like the ACLU say
that creates a system that is more likely to be infiltrated and have its
personal data pilfered.

In its written objection to the law, the ACLU claims REAL ID amounts to
the "first-ever national identity card system," which "would irreparably
damage the fabric of American life."

The Sept. 11 attacks were the main motivation for the changes.

The hijacker-pilot who flew into the Pentagon, Hani Hanjour, had a total
of four driver's licenses and ID cards from three states. The DHS, which
was created in response to the attacks, has created a slogan for REAL
ID: "One driver, one license."

By 2014, anyone seeking to board an airplane or enter a federal building
would have to present a REAL ID-compliant driver's license, with the
notable exception of those more than 50 years old, Homeland Security
officials said.

The over-50 exemption was created to give states more time to get
everyone new licenses, and officials say the risk of someone in that age
group being a terrorist,
illegal immigrant or con artist is much less. By 2017, even those over
50 must have a REAL ID-compliant card to board a plane.

Among other details of the REAL ID plan:

--The traditional driver's license photograph would be taken at the
beginning of the application instead of the end so that should someone
be rejected for failure to prove identity and citizenship, the
applicant's photo would be kept on file and checked in the future if
that person attempted to con the system again.

--The cards will have three layers of security measures but will not
contain microchips as some had expected. States will be able to choose
from a menu which security measures they will put in their cards.

Over the next year, the government expects all states to begin checking
both the Social Security numbers and immigration status of license
applicants.

Most states currently check Social Security numbers and about half check
immigration status. Some, like New York, Virginia, North Carolina and
California, already have implemented many of the security measures
envisioned in REAL ID. In California, for example, officials expect the
only major change to adopt the first phase would be to take the
photograph at the beginning of the application process instead of the
end.

After the Social Security and immigration status checks become
nationwide practice, officials plan to move on to more expansive
security checks, including state DMV offices checking with the State
Department to verify those applicants who use passports to get a
driver's license, verifying birth certificates and checking with other
states to ensure an applicant doesn't have more than one license.

A handful of states have already signed written agreements indicating
plans to comply with REAL ID. Seventeen others, though, have passed
legislation or resolutions objecting to it, often based on concerns
about the billions of dollars such extra security is expected to cost.
--------
Associated Press writer Eileen Sullivan contributed to this report.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 02:54:15 PM by Robbie » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2008, 01:46:32 PM »

  Re: New ID Rules May Complicate Air Travel. Pastports to travel stat
Posted by: "a.lange@juno.com" a.lange@juno.com   glob077
Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:36 pm (PST)
This is pure BS. According to the Federal rules, as uncovered by Brad Barnhill, no one needs any ID to travel by air. The Feds have a secondary screening procedure they have to go through if an air traveler doesn't have ID. This may slow them up if everyone didn't have "proper" ID - but that's their problem, isn't it? They send out notices like that below to scare the cowering masses into compliance.
Sadly, it usually works.

-- Ambro <ambrovista@yahoo.com> wrote:
New ID Rules May Complicate Air Travel
Jan 11, 6:19 PM (ET)
By DEVLIN BARRETT
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080111/D8U3VK8O0.html
(AP) Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff
speaks at a news conference on REAL ID at the
National...

Clear Registered Traveler - Fly Through Airport
Security Get in the Fast Lane.
www.flyclear.com

National IDentity Crisis - State IDs and US passports
now send wireless info! Stop it for $10
www.emvelope.com


WASHINGTON (AP) - Millions of air travelers may find
going through airport security much more complicated
this spring, as the Bush administration heads toward a
showdown with state governments over post-Sept. 11
rules for new driver's licenses.

By May, the dispute could leave millions of people
unable to use their licenses to board planes, but
privacy advocates called that a hollow threat by
federal officials.

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, who was
unveiling final details of the REAL ID Act's rules on
Friday, said that if states want their licenses to
remain valid for air travel after May 2008, those
states must seek a waiver indicating they want more
time to comply with the legislation.

Chertoff said that for any state which doesn't seek
such a waiver by May, residents of that state will
have to use a passport or certain types of federal
border-crossing cards if they want to avoid a vigorous
secondary screening at airport security.

(AP) A woman has her photo taken by an unidentified
DMV technician at the California Department of
Motor...
Full Image
"The last thing I want to do is punish citizens of a
state who would love to have a REAL ID license but
can't get one," Chertoff said. "But in the end, the
rule is the rule as passed by Congress."

The plan's chief critic, the American Civil Liberties
Union, called Chertoff's deadline a bluff - and urged
state governments to call him on it.

"Are they really prepared to shut those airports down?
Which is what effectively would happen if the
residents of those states are going to have to go
through secondary scrutiny," said Barry Steinhardt,
director of the ACLU's technology and liberty program.
"This is a scare tactic."

So far, 17 states have passed legislation or
resolutions objecting to the REAL ID Act's provisions,
many due to concerns it will cost them too much to
comply. The 17, according to the ACLU, are Arkansas,
Colorado, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Maine,
Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire,
North Dakota, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee and
Washington.

Maine officials said Friday they were unsure if their
own state law even allows them to ask for a waiver.

(AP) Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff
speaks at a news conference on REAL ID at the
National...
Full Image
"It certainly seems to be an effort by the federal
government to create compliance with REAL ID whether
states have an interest in doing so or not," said Don
Cookson, spokesman for the Maine secretary of state's
office.

The Sept. 11 attacks were the main motivation for the
changes: The hijacker-pilot who flew into the
Pentagon, Hani Hanjour, had four driver's licenses and
ID cards from three states.

The Homeland Security Department and other officials
say the only way to ensure an ID is safe is to check
it against secure government data; critics such as the
ACLU say that creates a system that is more likely to
be infiltrated and have its personal data pilfered.

Congress passed the REAL ID law in 2005, but the
effort has been delayed by opposition from states
worried about the cost and civil libertarians upset
about what they believe are invasions of privacy.

Under the rules announced Friday, Americans born after
Dec. 1, 1964, will have to get more secure driver's
licenses in the next six years, over which time the
new requirements would gradually be phased in.

A key deadline would come in 2011, when federal
authorities hope all states will be in compliance, and
the regulations would not take full effect for all
Americans until 2017.

To make the plan more appealing to cost-conscious
states, federal authorities drastically reduced the
expected cost from $14.6 billion to $3.9 billion, a 73
percent decline, said Homeland Security officials
familiar with the plan.

By 2014, anyone seeking to board an airplane or enter
a federal building would have to present a REAL
ID-compliant card, with the notable exception of those
older than 50, Homeland Security officials said.

The over-50 exemption was created to give states more
time to get everyone new licenses, and officials say
the risk of someone in that age group being a
terrorist, illegal immigrant or con artist is much
less. By 2017, even those over 50 must have a REAL
ID-compliant card to board a plane.

Among other details of the REAL ID plan:

_The traditional driver's license photograph would be
taken at the beginning of the application instead of
the end so that if someone is rejected for failure to
prove identity and citizenship, the applicant's photo
would be kept on file and checked if that person tried
to con the system again.

_The cards will have three layers of security measures
but will not contain microchips as some had expected.
States will be able to choose from a menu which
security measures they will put in their cards.

_After Social Security and immigration status checks
become nationwide practice, officials plan to move on
to more expansive security checks. State DMV offices
would be required to verify birth certificates; check
with other states to ensure an applicant doesn't have
more than one license; and check with the State
Department to verify applicants who use passports to
get a driver's license.
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« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2008, 06:35:14 PM »

Residency
Posted by: "marvinelsesser" marvinelsesser@yahoo.com   marvinelsesser
Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:28 pm (PST)
By having a State issued drivers license, is this an admission of being
a resident U.S. citizen (14th amendment)?
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« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2008, 06:36:02 PM »

Re: Residency
Posted by: "George Daniel" Doer77@juno.com   doer_777
Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:04 pm (PST)
Having a State-issued drivers license is NOT an admission of being a
U.S. citizen. Not a U.S. citizen, but "STATE OF ... " resident.
U.S. "resident aliens" are not "citizens," but can get "drivers
licenses." Yet you need to be a State "resident" to get a "drivers
license." Usually having an "address" within the State is sufficient.

However, this is just another nail in your coffin, if you accept
suretyship for the all-CAPS VESSEL. Just look on ANY "government"
document, and you will see your name spelled in all-CAPS.

Same for all creations of "government," such as corporations, banks,
etc. So bank accounts, credit cards, utiltiy bills, etc. will have
your name spelled in all-CAPS.

Remember that "THEY" have NO AUTHORITY (Jurisdiction) over us until
WE give it to "THEM." We do that by contracting with them for
the "benefits" of licenses, taxes, regulations and slave status.

So in effect, we give up our God-given RIGHT of use of the Common
Ways, for the PRIVILEGE of "driving." And it costs us dearly.

George

--- "marvinelsesser" <marvinelsesser@...> wrote:
>
> By having a State issued drivers license, is this an admission of
being a resident U.S. citizen (14th amendment)?
>
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« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2008, 01:37:39 PM »

Re: Residency
Posted by: "Ed Salvage" enlaw98@yahoo.com   enlaw98
Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:26 pm (PST)
It is nice to read something from people that have a
idea of what is going on. I have only fund one word
that pertains to the all cap name, and that is called
Nom deguree An assumed name, as one under which a
person fights, paints, writes, etc.; pseudonym [lit,
war name] [Websters unabridged Dictionary]. It
seems to a word that represents War.
There is also a word in Blacks that some day I would
like to research that might deal with the all cap
name. But it is a fiction, and a fiction has no
rights, only privileges, and privileges are regulated
by man made law.

--- George Daniel <Doer77@juno.com> wrote:

> Having a State-issued drivers license is NOT an
> admission of being a
> U.S. citizen. Not a U.S. citizen, but "STATE OF
> ... " resident.
> U.S. "resident aliens" are not "citizens," but can
> get "drivers
> licenses." Yet you need to be a State "resident" to
> get a "drivers
> license." Usually having an "address" within the
> State is sufficient.
>
> However, this is just another nail in your coffin,
> if you accept
> suretyship for the all-CAPS VESSEL. Just look on
> ANY "government"
> document, and you will see your name spelled in
> all-CAPS.
>
> Same for all creations of "government," such as
> corporations, banks,
> etc. So bank accounts, credit cards, utiltiy bills,
> etc. will have
> your name spelled in all-CAPS.
>
> Remember that "THEY" have NO AUTHORITY
> (Jurisdiction) over us until
> WE give it to "THEM." We do that by contracting
> with them for
> the "benefits" of licenses, taxes, regulations and
> slave status.
>
> So in effect, we give up our God-given RIGHT of use
> of the Common
> Ways, for the PRIVILEGE of "driving." And it costs
> us dearly.
>
> George
>
>
>
> --- "marvinelsesser" <marvinelsesser@...> wrote:
> >
> > By having a State issued drivers license, is this
> an admission of
> being a resident U.S. citizen (14th amendment)?
> >
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« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2008, 01:38:57 PM »

Re: Residency
Posted by: "Ed Salvage" enlaw98@yahoo.com   enlaw98
Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:31 pm (PST)
Funny, but I just got this from a friend, but as now I
hage not read it yet.

Good reading from the 1800.
http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=2001&chapter=138145&layout=html&Itemid=27
CHAPTER II.
LEGAL FICTIONS.
When primitive law has once been embodied in a Code,
there is an end to what may be called its spontaneous
development. Henceforward the changes effected in it,
if effected at all, are effected deliberately and from
without. It is impossible to suppose that the customs
of any race or tribe remained unaltered during the
whole of the long—in some instances the
immense—interval between their declaration by a
patriarchal monarch and their publication in writing.
It would be unsafe too to affirm that no part of the
alteration was effected deliberately. But from the
little we know of the progress of law during this
period, we are justified in assuming that set purpose
had the very smallest share in producing change. Such
innovations on the earliest usages as disclose
themselves appear to have been dictated by feelings
and modes of thought which, under our present mental
conditions, we are unable to comprehend. A new era
begins, however, with the Codes. Wherever, after this
epoch, we trace the course of legal modification we
are able to attribute it to the conscious desire of
improvement, or at all events of compassing objects
other than those which were aimed at in the primitive
times.
It may seem at first sight that no general
propositions worth trusting can be elicited from the
history of legal systems subsequent to the codes. The
field is too vast. We cannot be sure that we have
included a sufficient number of phenomena in our
observations, or that we accurately understand those
which we have observed. But the undertaking will be
seen to be more feasible, if we consider that after
the epoch of codes the distinction between stationary
and progressive societies begins to make itself felt.
It is only with the progressive societies that we are
concerned, and nothing is more remarkable than their
extreme fewness. In spite of overwhelming evidence, it
is most difficult for a citizen of western Europe to
bring thoroughly home to himself the truth that the
civilisation which surrounds him is a rare exception
in the history of the world. The tone of thought
common among us, all our hopes, fears, and
speculations, would be materially affected, if we had
vividly before us the relation of the progressive
races to the totality of human life. It is
indisputable that much the greatest part of mankind
has never shown a particle of desire that its civil
institutions should be improved since the moment when
external completeness was first given to them by their
embodiment in some permanent record. One set of usages
has occasionally been violently overthrown and
superseded by another; here and there a primitive
code, pretending to a supernatural origin, has been
greatly extended, and distorted into the most
surprising forms, by the perversity of sacerdotal
commentators; but, except in a small section of the
world, there has been nothing like the gradual
amelioration of a legal system. There has been
material civilisation, but, instead of the
civilisation expanding the law, the law has limited
the civilisation. The study of races in their
primitive condition affords us some clue to the point
at which the development of certain societies has
stopped. We can see that Brahminical India has not
passed beyond a stage which occurs in the history of
all the families of mankind, the stage at which a rule
of law is not yet discriminated from a rule of
religion. The members of such a society consider that
the transgression of a religious ordinance should be
punished by civil penalties, and that the violation of
a civil duty exposes the delinquent to divine
correction. In China this point has been past, but
progress seems to have been there arrested, because
the civil laws are coextensive with all the ideas of
which the race is capable. The difference between the
stationary and progressive societies is, however, one
of the great secrets which inquiry has yet to
penetrate. Among partial explanations of it I venture
to place the considerations urged at the end of the
last chapter. It may further be remarked that no one
is likely to succeed in the investigation who does not
clearly realise that the stationary condition of the
human race is the rule, the progressive the exception.
And another indispensable condition of success is an
accurate knowledge of Roman law in all its principal
stages. The Roman jurisprudence has the longest known
history of any set of human institutions. The
character of all the changes which it underwent is
tolerably well ascertained. From its commencement to
its close, it was progressively modified for the
better, or for what the authors of the modification
conceived to be the better, and the course of
improvement was continued through periods at which all
the rest of human thought and action materially
slackened its space, and repeatedly threatened to
settle down into stagnation.
I confine myself in what follows to the progressive
societies. With respect to them it may be laid down
that social necessities and social opinion are always
more or less in advance of Law. We may come
indefinitely near to the closing of the gap between
them, but it has a perpetual tendency to reopen. Law
is stable; the societies we are speaking of are
progressive. The greater or less happiness of a people
depends on the degree of promptitude with which the
gulf is narrowed.
A general proposition of some value may be advanced
with respect to the agencies by which Law is brought
into harmony with society. These instrumentalities
seem to me to be three in number, Legal Fictions,
Equity, and Legislation. Their historical order is
that in which I have placed them. Sometimes two of
them will be seen operating together, and there are
legal systems which have escaped the influence of one
or other of them. But I know of no instance in which
the order of their appearance has been changed or
inverted. The early history of one of them, Equity, is
universally obscure, and hence it may be thought by
some that certain isolated statutes, reformatory of
the civil law, are older than any equitable
jurisdiction. My own belief is that remedial Equity is
everywhere older than remedial Legislation; but,
should this be not strictly true, it would only be
necessary to limit the proposition respecting their
order of sequence to the periods at which they
exercise a sustained and substantial influence in
transforming the original law.
I employ the word “fiction” in a sense considerably
wider than that in which English lawyers are
accustomed to use it, and with a meaning much more
extensive than that which belonged to the Roman
“fictiones.” Fictio, in old Roman law, is properly a
term of pleading, and signifies a false averment on
the part of the plaintiff which the defendant was not
allowed to traverse; such, for example, as an averment
that the plaintiff was a Roman citizen when in truth
he was a foreigner. The object of these “fictiones”
was, of course, to give jurisdiction, and they
therefore strongly resembled the allegations in the
writs of the English Queen’s Bench and Exchequer, by
which those Courts contrived to usurp the jurisdiction
of the Common Pleas:—the allegation that the defendant
was in custody of the king’s marshal, or that the
plaintiff was the king’s debtor, and could not pay his
debt by reason of the defendant’s default. But now I
employ the expression “Legal Fiction” to signify any
assumption which conceals, or affects to conceal, the
fact that a rule of law has undergone alteration, its
letter remaining unchanged, its operation being
modified. The words, therefore, include the instances
of fictions which I have cited from the English and
Roman law, but they embrace much more, for I should
speak both of the English Case-law and of the Roman
Responsa Prudentum as resting on fictions. Both these
examples will be examined presently. The fact is in
both cases that the law has been wholly changed; the
fiction is that it remains what it always was. It is
not difficult to understand why fictions in all their
forms are particularly congenial to the infancy of
society. They satisfy the desire for improvement,
which is not quite wanting, at the same time that they
do not offend the superstitious disrelish for change
which is always present. At a particular stage of
social progress they are invaluable expedients for
overcoming the rigidity of law and, indeed, without
one of them, the Fiction of Adoption which permits the
family tie to be artificially created, it is difficult
to understand how society would ever have escaped from
its swaddling-clothes, and taken its first steps
towards civilisation. We must, therefore, not suffer
ourselves to be affected by the ridicule which Bentham
pours on legal fictions wherever he meets them. To
revile them as merely fraudulent is to betray
ignorance of their peculiar office in the historical
development of law. But at the same time it would be
equally foolish to agree with those theorists who,
discerning that fictions have had their uses, argue
that they ought to be stereotyped in our system. There
are several Fictions still exercising powerful
influence on English jurisprudence which could not be
discarded without a severe shock to the ideas, and
considerable change in the language, of English
practitioners; but there can be no doubt of the
general truth that it is unworthy of us to effect an
admittedly beneficial object by so rude a device as a
legal fiction. I cannot admit any anomaly to be
innocent, which makes the law either more difficult to
understand or harder to arrange in harmonious order.
Now, among other disadvantages, legal fictions are the
greatest of obstacles to symmetrical classification.
The rule of law remains sticking in the system, but it
is a mere shell. It has been long ago undermined, and
a new rule hides itself under its cover. Hence there
is at once a difficulty in knowing whether the rule
which is actually operative should be classed in its
true or in its apparent place, and minds of different
casts will differ as to the branch of the alternative
which ought to be selected. If the English law is ever
to assume an orderly distribution, it will be
necessary to prune away the legal fictions which, in
spite of some recent legislative improvements, are
still abundant in it.
The next instrumentality by which the adaptation of
law to social wants is carried on I call Equity,
meaning by that word any body of rules existing by the
side of the original civil law, founded on distinct
principles and claiming incidentally to supersede the
civil law in virtue of a superior sanctity inherent in
those principles. The Equity whether of the Roman
Prætors or of the English Chancellors, differs from
the Fictions which in each case preceded it, in that
the interference with law is open and avowed. On the
other hand, it differs from Legislation, the agent of
legal improvement which comes after it, in that its
claim to authority is grounded, not on the prerogative
of any external person or body, not even on that of
the magistrate who enunciates it, but on the special
nature of its principles, to which it is alleged that
all law ought to conform. The very conception of a set
of principles, invested with a higher sacredness than
those of the original law and demanding application
independently of the consent of any external body,
belongs to a much more advanced stage of thought than
that to which legal fictions originally suggested
themselves.
Legislation, the enactments of a legislature which,
whether it take the form of an autocratic prince or of
a parliamentary assembly, is the assumed organ of the
entire society, is the last of the ameliorating
instrumentalities. It differs from Legal Fictions just
as Equity differs from them, and it is also
distinguished from Equity, as deriving its authority
from an external body or person. Its obligatory force
is independent of its principles. The legislature,
whatever be the actual restraints imposed on it by
public opinion, is in theory empowered to impose what
obligations it pleases on the members of the
community. There is nothing to prevent its legislating
in the wantonness of caprice. Legislation may be
dictated by equity, if that last word be used to
indicate some standard of right and wrong to which its
enactments happen to be adjusted; but then these
enactments are indebted for their binding force to the
authority of the legislature, and not to that of the
principles on which the legislature acted; and thus
they differ from rules of Equity, in the technical
sense of the word, which pretend to a paramount
sacredness entitling them at once to the recognition
of the courts even without the concurrence of prince
or parliamentary assembly. It is the more necessary to
note these differences because a student of Bentham
would be apt to confound Fictions, Equity, and Statute
law under the single head of legislation. They all, he
would say, involve law-making; they differ only in
respect of the machinery by which the new law is
produced. That is perfectly true, and we must never
forget it; but it furnishes no reason why we should
deprive our selves of so convenient a term as
Legislation in the special sense. Legislation and
Equity are disjoined in the popular mind and in the
minds of most lawyers; and it will never do to neglect
the distinction between them, however conventional,
when important practical consequences follow from it.
It would be easy to select from almost any regularly
developed body of rules examples of legal fictions,
which at once betray their true character to the
modern observer. In the two instances which I proceed
to consider, the nature of the expedient employed is
not so readily detected. The first authors of these
fictions did not perhaps intend to innovate, certainly
did not wish to be suspected of innovating. There are,
moreover, and always have been, persons who refuse to
see any fiction in the process, and conventional
language bears out their refusal. No examples,
therefore, can be better calculated to illustrate the
wide diffusion of legal fictions, and the efficiency
with which they perform their two-fold office of
transforming a system of laws and of concealing the
transformation.
We in England are well accustomed to the extension,
modification, and improvement of law by a machinery
which, in theory, is incapable of altering one jot or
one line of existing jurisprudence. The process by
which this virtual legislation is effected is not so
much insensible as unacknowledged. With respect to
that great portion of our legal system which is
enshrined in cases and recorded in law reports, we
habitually employ a double language, and entertain, as
it would appear, a double and inconsistent set of
ideas. When a group of facts come before an English
Court for adjudication, the whole course of the
discussion between the judge and the advocate assumes
that no question is, or can be, raised which will call
for the application of any principles but old ones, or
of any distinctions but such as have long since been
allowed. It is taken absolutely for granted that there
is somewhere a rule of known law which will cover the
facts of the dispute now litigated, and that, if such
a rule be not discovered, it is only that the
necessary patience, knowledge or acumen, is not
forthcoming to detect it. Yet the moment the judgment
has been rendered and reported, we slide unconsciously
or unavowedly into a new language and a new train of
thought. We now admit that the new decision has
modified the law. The rules applicable have, to use
the very inaccurate expression sometimes employed,
become more elastic. In fact they have been changed. A
clear addition has been made to the precedents, and
the canon of law elicited by comparing the precedents
is not the same with that which would have been
obtained if the series of cases had been curtailed by
a single example. The fact that the old rule has been
repealed, and that a new one has replaced it, eludes
us, because we are not in the habit of throwing into
precise language the legal formulas which we derive
from the precedents, so that a change in their tenor
is not easily detected unless it is violent and
glaring. I shall not now pause to consider at length
the causes which have led English lawyers to acquiesce
in these curious anomalies. Probably it will be found
that originally it was the received doctrine that
somewhere, in nubibus or in gremio magistratuum, there
existed a complete, coherent, symmetrical body of
English law, of an amplitude sufficient to furnish
principles which would apply to any conceivable
combination of circumstances. The theory was at first
much more thoroughly believed in than it is now, and
indeed it may have had a better foundation. The judges
of the thirteenth century may have really had at their
command a mine of law unrevealed to the bar and to the
lay-public, for there is some reason for suspecting
that in secret they borrowed freely, though not always
wisely, from current compendia of the Roman and Canon
laws. But that storehouse was closed as soon as the
points decided at Westminster Hall became numerous
enough to supply a basis for a substantive system of
jurisprudence; and now for centuries English
practitioners have so expressed themselves as to
convey the paradoxical proposition that, except by
Equity and Statute law, nothing has been added to the
basis since it was first constituted. We do not admit
that our tribunals legislate; we imply that they have
never legislated; and yet we maintain that the rules
of the English common law, with some assistance from
the Court of Chancery and from Parliament, are
coextensive with the complicated interests of modern
society.
A body of law bearing a very close and very
instructive resemblance to our case-law in those
particulars which I have noticed, was known to the
Romans under the name of the Responsa Prudentum, the
“answers of the learned in the law.” The form of these
Responses varied a good deal at different periods of
the Roman jurisprudence, but throughout its whole
course they consisted of explanatory glosses on
authoritative written documents, and at first they
were exclusively collections of opinions
interpretative of the Twelve Tables. As with us, all
legal language adjusted itself to the assumption that
the text of the old Code remained unchanged. There was
the express rule. It overrode all glosses and
comments, and no one openly admitted that any
interpretation of it, however eminent the interpreter,
was safe from revision on appeal to the venerable
texts. Yet in point of fact, Books of Responses
bearing the names of leading jurisconsults obtained an
authority at least equal to that of our reported
cases, and constantly modified, extended, limited or
practically overruled the provisions of the Decemviral
law. The authors of the new jurisprudence during the
whole progress of its formation professed the most
sedulous respect for the letter of the Code. They were
merely explaining it, deciphering it, bringing out its
full meaning; but then, in the result, by piecing
texts together, by adjusting the law to states of fact
which actually presented themselves and by speculating
on its possible application to others which might
occur, by introducing principles of interpretation
derived from the exegesis of other written documents
which fell under their observation, they educed a vast
variety of canons which had never been dreamed of by
the compilers of the Twelve Tables and which were in
truth rarely or never to be found there. All these
treatises of the jurisconsults claimed respect on the
ground of their assumed conformity with the Code, but
their comparative authority depended on the reputation
of the particular jurisconsults who gave them to the
world. Any name of universally acknowledged greatness
clothed a Book of Responses with a binding force
hardly less than that which belonged to enactments of
the legislature; and such a book in its turn
constituted a new foundation on which a further body
of jurisprudence might rest. The Responses of the
early lawyers were not however published, in the
modern sense, by their author. They were recorded and
edited by his pupils, and were not therefore in all
probability arranged according to any scheme of
classification. The part of the students in these
publications must be carefully noted, because the
service they rendered to their teacher seems to have
been generally repaid by his sedulous attention to the
pupils’ education. The educational treatises called
Institutes or Commentaries, which are a later fruit of
the duty then recognised, are among the most
remarkable features of the Roman system. It was
apparently in these Institutional works, and not in
the books intended for trained lawyers, that the
jurisconsults gave to the public their classifications
and their proposals for modifying and improving the
technical phraseology.
In comparing the Roman Responsa Prudentum with their
nearest English counterpart, it must be carefully
borne in mind that the authority by which this part of
the Roman jurisprudence was expounded was not the
bench, but the bar. The decision of a Roman tribunal,
though conclusive in the particular case, had no
ulterior authority except such as was given by the
professional repute of the magistrate who happened to
be in office for the time. Properly speaking, there
was no institution at Rome during the republic
analogous to the English Bench, the Chambers of
Imperial Germany, or the Parliaments of Monarchical
France. There were magistrates indeed, invested with
momentous judicial functions in their several
departments, but the tenure of the magistracies was
but for a single year, so that they are much less
aptly compared to a permanent judicature than to a
cycle of offices briskly circulating among the leaders
of the bar. Much might be said on the origin of a
condition of things which looks to us like a startling
anomaly, but which was in fact much more congenial
than our own system to the spirit of ancient
societies, tending, as they always did, to split into
distinct orders which, how ever exclusive themselves,
tolerated no professional hierarchy above them.
It is remarkable that this system did not produce
certain effects which might on the whole have been
expected from it. It did not, for example, popularise
the Roman law,—it did not, as in some of the Greek
republics, lessen the effort of intellect required for
the mastery of the science, although its diffusion and
authoritative exposition were opposed by no artificial
barriers. On the contrary, if it had not been for the
operation of a separate set of causes, there were
strong probabilities that the Roman jurisprudence
would have become as minute, technical, and difficult
as any system which has since prevailed. Again, a
consequence which might still more naturally have been
looked for, does not appear at any time to have
exhibited itself. The jurisconsults, until the
liberties of Rome were overthrown, formed a class
which was quite undefined and must have fluctuated
greatly in numbers; nevertheless, there does not seem
to have existed a doubt as to the particular
individuals whose opinion, in their generation, was
conclusive on the cases submitted to them. The vivid
pictures of a leading jurisconsult’s daily practice
which abound in Latin literature—the clients from the
country flocking to his antechamber in the early
morning, and the students standing round with their
note-books to record the great lawyer’s replies—are
seldom or never identified at any given period with
more than one or two conspicuous names. Owing too to
the direct contact of the client and the advocate, the
Roman people itself seems to have been always alive to
the rise and fall of professional reputation, and
there is abundance of proof, more particularly in the
well-known oration of Cicero, “Pro Muræna,” that the
reverence of the commons for forensic success was apt
to be excessive rather than deficient.
We cannot doubt that the peculiarities which have been
noticed in the instrumentality by which the
development of the Roman law was first effected, were
the source of its characteristic excellence, its early
wealth in principles. The growth and exuberance of
principle was fostered, in part, by the competition
among the expositors of the law, an influence wholly
unknown where there exists a Bench, the depositaries
instrusted by king or commonwealth with the
prerogative of justice. But the chief agency, no
doubt, was the uncontrolled multiplication of cases
for legal decision. The state of facts which caused
genuine perplexity to a country client was not a whit
more entitled to form the basis of the jurisconsult’s
Response, or legal decision, than a set of
hypothetical circumstances propounded by an ingenious
pupil. All combinations of fact were on precisely the
same footing, whether they were real or imaginary. It
was nothing to the jurisconsult that his opinion was
overruled for the moment by the magistrate who
adjudicated on his client’s case, unless that
magistrate happened to rank above him in legal
knowledge or the esteem of his profession. I do not,
indeed, mean it to be inferred that he would wholly
omit to consider his client’s advantage, for the
client was in earlier times the great lawyer’s
constituent and at a later period his paymaster, but
the main road to the rewards of ambition lay through
the good opinion of his order, and it is obvious that
under such a system as I have been describing this was
much more likely to be secured by viewing each case as
an illustration of a great principle, or an
exemplification of a broad rule, than by merely
shaping it for an insulated forensic triumph. It is
evident that powerful influence must have been
exercised by the want of any distinct check on the
suggestion or invention of possible questions. Where
the data can be multiplied at pleasure, the facilities
for evolving a general rule are immensely increased.
As the law is administered among ourselves, the judge
cannot travel out of the sets of facts exhibited
before him or before his predecessors. Accordingly
each group of circumstances which is adjudicated upon
receives, to employ a Gallicism, a sort of
consecration. It acquires certain qualities which
distinguish it from every other case genuine or
hypothetical. But at Rome as I have attempted to
explain, there was nothing resembling a Bench or
Chamber of judges; and therefore no combination of
facts possessed any particular value more than
another. When a difficulty came for opinion before the
jurisconsult, there was nothing to prevent a person
endowed with a nice perception of analogy from at once
proceeding to adduce and consider an entire class of
supposed questions with which a particular feature
connected it. Whatever were the practical advice given
to the client, the responsum treasured up in the
notebooks of listening pupils would doubtless
contemplate the circumstances as governed by a great
principle, or included in a sweeping rule. Nothing
like this has ever been possible among ourselves, and
it should be acknowledged that in many criticisms
passed on the English law the manner in which it has
been enunciated seems to have been lost sight of. The
hesitation of our courts in declaring principles may
be much more reasonably attributed to the comparative
scantiness of our precedents, voluminous as they
appear to him who is acquainted with no other system,
than to the temper of our judges. It is true that in
the wealth of legal principle we are considerably
poorer than several modern European nations. But they,
it must be remembered, took the Roman jurisprudence
for the foundation of their civil institutions. They
built the débris of the Roman law into their walls;
but in the materials and workmanship of the residue
there is not much which distinguishes it favourably
from the structure erected by the English judicature.
The period of Roman freedom was the period during
which the stamp of a distinctive character was
impressed on the Roman jurisprudence; and through all
the earlier part of it, it was by the Responses of the
jurisconsults that the development of the law was
mainly carried on. But as we approach the fall of the
republic there are signs that the Responses are
assuming a form which must have been fatal to their
farther expansion. They are becoming systematised and
reduced into compendia. Q. Mucius Scævola, the
Pontifex, is said to have published a manual of the
entire Civil Law, and there are traces in the writings
of Cicero of growing disrelish for the old methods, as
compared with the more active instruments of legal
innovation. Other agencies had in fact by this time
been brought to bear on the law. The Edict, or annual
proclamation of the Prætor, had risen into credit as
the principal engine of law reform, and L. Cornelius
Sylla, by causing to be enacted the great group of
statutes called the Leges Corneliœ, had shown what
rapid and speedy improvements can be effected by
direct legislation. The final blow to the Responses
was dealt by Augustus, who limited to a few leading
jurisconsults the right of giving binding opinions on
cases submitted to them, a change which, though it
brings us nearer the ideas of the modern world, must
obviously have altered fundamentally the
characteristics of the legal profession and the nature
of its influence on Roman law. At a later period
another school of jurisconsults arose, the great
lights of jurisprudence for all time. But Ulpian and
Paulus, Gaius and Papinian, were not authors of
Responses. Their works were regular treatises on
particular departments of the law, more especially on
the Prætor’s Edict.
The Equity of the Romans and the Prætorian Edict by
which it was worked into their system, will be
considered in the next chapter. Of the Statute Law it
is only necessary to say that it was scanty during the
republic, but became very voluminous under the empire.
In the youth and infancy of a nation it is a rare
thing for the legislature to be called into action for
the general reform of private law. The cry of the
people is not for change in the laws, which are
usually valued above their real worth, but solely for
their pure, complete and easy administration; and
recourse to the legislative body is generally directed
to the removal of some great abuse, or the decision of
some incurable quarrel between classes or dynasties.
There seems in the minds of the Romans to have been
some association between the enactment of a large body
of statutes and the settlement of society after a
great civil commotion. Sylla signalised his
reconstitution of the republic by the Leges Corneliæ;
Julius Cæsar contemplated vast additions to the
Statute Law; Augustus caused to be passed the
all-important group of Leges Juliæ and among later
emperors the most active promulgators of constitutions
are princes who, like Constantine, have the concerns
of the world to readjust, The true period of Roman
Statute Law does not begin till the establishment of
the empire. The enactments of the emperors, clothed at
first in the pretence of popular sanction, but
afterwards emanating undisguisedly from the imperial
prerogative, extend in increasing massiveness from the
consolidation of Augustus’s power to the publication
of the Code of Justinian. It will be seen that even in
the reign of the second emperor a considerable
approximation is made to that condition of the law and
that mode of administering it with which we are all
familiar. A statute law and a limited board of
expositors have arisen into being; a permanent court
of appeal and a collection of approved commentaries
will very shortly be added; and thus we are brought
close on the ideas of our own day.
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« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2008, 01:40:16 PM »

Re: Residency
Posted by: "Ed Salvage" enlaw98@yahoo.com   enlaw98
Sun Jan 20, 2008 5:40 pm (PST)
This is my opinion, but it seems to hold as being
true. A license from the corporate state, presumes
that you are a corporate person, and is permission for
you to do something that would otherwise be illegal.
To travel without a license is not illegal, but to
drive on the public highways and use it for your
profit and gain without a license would be illegal. To
transport your private property on the public highways
in your own car for your own benefit does not require
a license, but if you borrow to buy the car or truck,
and are under contract, then the contract would
require you to have comply with the state statutes
which require you to have the license. The old loan
agreements even said that, but I think that the newer
ones removed that statement.
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2008, 01:00:40 PM »

  FW: LUIS EWING SLAM DUNKS ANOTHER SILLY ALL CAPITAL LETTERS STRAWMAN
Posted by: "rcwcodebuster@comcast.net" rcwcodebuster@comcast.net   rcwcodebuster
Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:58 pm (PST)
From Luis Ewing at (253) 226-3741 or <rcwcodebuster@comcast.net> or <rcwcodebuster@yahoo.com>

SUBJECT: WHAT A MEMORANDUM OF LAW IS NOT?

To EVERYONE:
GORDON WARREN EPPERLY’S "MEMORANDUM OF LAW" AT:
http://Http://www.worldnewsstand.net/law/the_name.htm
IS A JOKE AT BEST!

Why you ask?
ANSWER: Because he cited NO LAW to support his incorrect position, i.e. he did NOT even cite just ONE (1) Statute, he did NOT even cite just ONE (1) Court Rule and he did NOT even cite just ONE (1) Published Court Case from any State or Federal Jurisdiction that says that a Court has to dismiss a case because they misspelled your name in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS!
The fact is that Judges are NOT English Professors!
The fact is that English Professors are NOT Judges!
The fact is that Gordon Warren Epperly’s so called Memorandum of Law did NOT cite just even ONE (1) Court Case from any State or Federal Jurisdiction that says that a court would have to dismiss any type of a case just because they misspelled your name in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.
THERE IS NO LAW IN HIS SO CALLED "MEMORANDUM OF LAW." (WHAT A JOKE!).
What Proper English Grammar is or is NOT is simply at best called "style and orthography."
What proper "style and orthography" is or is NOT is simply NOT LAW.
Style and Orthography is merely the mode, manner, habit and customary way of writing something, but it’s certainly NOT LAW.
What Proper English Grammar is or is NOT simply is NOT LAW period and Gordon Warren Epperly has NOT even cited just ONE (1) court case that says so!
Any Competent Judge from even the lowest court in any State will just simply tell you that while the writings of the Editorial Staff of the University of Chicago is "interesting reading", but the fact remains that the Editorial Staff of the University of Chicago are not Judges and that their English Class Room is NOT a Court of competent jurisdiction that can make any kind of ruling as to what the law is period. (Emphasis added).
Gordon Warren Epperly’s so called "Memorandum of Law" contains NO LAW from any State Jurisdiction.
Gordon Warren Epperly’s so called "Memorandum of Law" contains NO LAW from any Federal Jurisdiction.
Gordon Warren Epperly’s so called "Memorandum of Law" simply is NOT A MEMORANDUM OF LAW PERIOD!
WHERE’S THE BEEF?
WHERE’S THE LAW?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?Huh?
A few patriots or should I say "patridiots" claim to have success using this document, but I highly doubt it that it was over anything more important than a CIVIL INFRACTION WHICH ARE TRIX WHICH ARE FOR KIDS!
Please provide the name of the Court, phone, fax and mailing address of your court and the Case Numbers so I can order Certified Copies of the Court Docket or Case Report and see if what they are saying is true or not?
Case No. _______________________ ?
Case No. _______________________ ?
Case No. ________________________ ?
Even if some patriot did have any success with this document, I bet it was over a silly minor and trivial issue such as speeding or some other Civil Infraction for which they cannot give you any jail time and if that’s the case, I can tell you why they dismissed.
Because the court’s are full of people who just want to pay their tickets and they are making too much money to waste their time and spend 15 minutes to half an hour or more arguing with some Loony Tune Foaming At The Mouth Anti-Government Patriot Wacko who wants to ARGUE FRIVOLOUS ISSUES that have nothing to do with your case, i.e. they do NOT want to LOSE MONEY wasting time arguing with you over something so SILLY as the ALL CAPITAL LETTERS ARGUMENT.
I have seen many other people get judges to recuse themselves or set the case over to the next date when they first hit the court’s with this garbage and caught the judges by surprise in a new jurisdiction where they haven’t seen this argument come to their court yet. Sooner or later the judges in your area will have a judicial conference and they will have already assigned an expert in taking apart frivolous patriot arguments explain to them how your arguments are bogus and to simply deny them and it’s only a matter of time before they do so in your area.
Even if you have had some "temporary success" by judge recusing themselves, this is still not a "dismissal" and certainly not a "win" in anyone’s book.
Even if you have won over some silly minor and trivial issues (like speeding tickets which are civil infractions) with this document, that can’t be attributed to anything more than just sheer luck as the court’s are too busy making money to spend time and lose money arguing with some yo-yo over something as stupid as the spelling of your name.
The fact that any of these ALL CAPITAL LETTERS STRAWMAN are using UCC-1's as a defense for any criminal or civil traffic matters shows me that they are not competent and have no understanding of the law.

Until someone can show me Case Law precedent that EVERYONE can use and cite as authority telling a court that they are required to dismiss because they have misspelled your name into ALL CAPITAL LETTERS, nobody has shown any of us SQUAT!
Gordon Warren Epperly’s so called Memorandum of Law is not even a Memorandum of Law and is poorly written.
It is easy to tell that Gordon Warren Epperly is a Rank Amateur Beginner just from reading his silly Memorandum of Law that is NOT a MEMORANDUM OF LAW.
A real or valid Memorandum of Law would contain some law in it.
Gordon Warren Epperly’s so called Memorandum of Law is NOT a valid MEMORANDUM OF LAW BECAUSE IT CONTAINS NO LAW IN IT.
I suggest Gordon Warren Epperly go take a Para-Legal Course and learn how to write a VALID Memorandum of Law, find some LAW on this subject and start over!
Currently, his so called Memorandum of Law is NO more a memorandum of law than Mark Twain’s Huckleberry Fin or the story of Little Red Riding Hood is!
Sincerely
Luis Ewing

Caveat: The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confidential and may be hazardous to your preconceptions. FREE DISTRIBUTION: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed free to those who have expressed an interest in receiving the information for research and educational purposes. If the reader of this message is not the intended addressee, the reader is hereby notified that any consideration, dissemination or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. This message is being sent to you in compliance with the current Federal legislation for commercial e-mail (H.R.417 SECTION101Paragraph (e)(1)(A)) AND Bill s.1618 TITLE III passed by the 105th U.S. Congress. REMOVAL INSTRUCTIONS: This message cannot be considered SPAM as long as it includes: 1) contact information, and 2) a way to be removed from future e-mailings. If this e-mail communication has reached you in error, or should you wish to be permanently remove
d from the mailing list, please return to the below listed address asking me to remove you to Luis Ewing, 1911 S.W. Campus Drive, #106, Federal Way, Wash. 98023 or call and leave a message with your E-Mail address and request to be removed at (253) 226-3741. Thank you!
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2008, 01:01:38 PM »

  Re: [legality-of-drivers-license] FW:
Posted by: "Thomas Storm" stormyt@gmail.com   lexgtc
Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:30 am (PST)
Can you say CHA-CHING.
The bill rises even further.
How many attorneys want to win every case on the lower level and lose money?
So lets keep the ball rolling to extract the most amount of money from our
client.
then in the end... Snipes.... hell he is non the wiser cause he does not
know law.

On Jan 21, 2008 6:31 PM, <rcwcodebuster@comcast.net> wrote:

> From Luis Ewing at (253) 226-3741 or <*rcwcodebuster@comcast.net>*<%3Crcwcodebuster@comcast.net%3E>or <
> *rcwcodebuster@yahoo.com>* <%3Crcwcodebuster@yahoo.com%3E>
> *
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2008, 01:18:44 PM »

  Re: FOC Arrearages/Lic. Suspension Questions
Posted by: "John Meyer" john.l.meyer@gmail.com   thefever_y2k
Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:10 am (PST)
If you really want to set the system into a little tizzy, I wouldn't
even so much as plead "guilty", "not guilty" or "no contest" or even
cooperate with a public defender should they assign you one on the
contempt charge. Nothing can set them on so much of a circus as the
fact that they will have to bend over backwards to make sure your rights
are defended.
joe jurecki wrote:
> I fully agree on sitting it out even if you have the money now. If you
> pay out they will probably still jail you since that is what Mi does
> to fathers. While there do some recruiting. If you do not leave for
> work release they are bound to let you out early to get someone in
> that will pay. Also feel free to call me 1-231-690-8763
> */John Meyer <john.l.meyer@gmail.com>/* wrote:
>
> Just my suggestion to the OP: if they do put you in jail, I would sit
> there. Don't take any sort of work release program or anything of
> that
> nature. Let it accrue and make the county eat the cost of your
> incarceration. Moreover, I'd file a request for visitation from your
> children. Like these slimeballs are oft to say, child support and
> child
> visitation are two separate issues.
>
> joe jurecki wrote:
> > Do you have more info on your circumstances such as why you went
> off
> > work? Was it medical did your job move overseas etc? Have you
> filed a
> > motion to modify support and what came of it if you did etc
> >
> > */mfield01@baker.edu <mailto:%2A%2Fmfield01%40baker.edu>/* wrote:
> >
> > The FOC of GT County, MI. has sent notice of proposed driver's lic
> > suspension to me this month. Of course this is for arrearages and
> > a bench warrant has been issued. They have unceremoniously tacked
> > on incarceration charges since date of warrant.
> >
> > Questions:
> >
> > Would it do any good to attend hearing with an attorney?
> >
> > Is there a chance in hell of retaining my license and staying out
> > of jail?
> >
> > Should I just sit in jail and let things accrue until they have no
> > choice but to let me out and address the fact I just cannot afford
> > the support payments.
> >
> > My rights to four children are all but gone (visitation that was
> > supervised, suspended for some time) All appearences of full term
> > of rights no matter what I do.
> >
> > Extreme difficulty in obtaining employment. Currently attending
> > college full-time on Federal Student Loans. Is there any
> > consideration to staying out of jail to NOT default on loans?
> >
> > Any ideas and suggestions are welcome!
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Michael Fields
> >
> > Dad of four in Traverse City, MI.
> >
> >
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2008, 03:13:32 PM »

  Re: FOC Arrearages/Lic. Suspension Questions
Posted by: "John Meyer" john.l.meyer@gmail.com   thefever_y2k
Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:17 am (PST)
Another reason is that child support/contempt charges are usually low
priority. Of course, they could be waiting for one of those public
sweep sting operations. If they do, maybe somebody can organize a
protest outside of the jail in Michigan. I'm a little too far for that.

mfield01@baker.edu wrote:
> John and Joe thanks, John I will give you a call. I have a feeling that's precisely why they have not sent someone to pcik me up. In fact I live no further than 1 mile from the city and county sheriff's departments. Certainly they all know where I reside. FOC, and the courts, in addition to MSP have gotten many of my written complaints of corruption and collusion.
>
> The sickening irony is the local police and courts did not prosecute the live-in boyfriend whom bashed my son's skull in (not two years old at the time)
>
> And of course gave all four of my babies back to the ex so they could sustain deeper emotional damage and neglect. Crazy...
>
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2008, 05:14:43 PM »

  FOC Arrearages/Lic. Suspension Questions
Posted by: "mfield01@baker.edu" mfield01@baker.edu   funwmikey
Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:49 am (PST)
The FOC of GT County, MI. has sent notice of proposed driver's lic suspension to me this month. Of course this is for arrearages and a bench warrant has been issued. They have unceremoniously tacked on incarceration charges since date of warrant.

Questions:

Would it do any good to attend hearing with an attorney?

Is there a chance in hell of retaining my license and staying out of jail?

Should I just sit in jail and let things accrue until they have no choice but to let me out and address the fact I just cannot afford the support payments.

My rights to four children are all but gone (visitation that was supervised, suspended for some time) All appearences of full term of rights no matter what I do.

Extreme difficulty in obtaining employment. Currently attending college full-time on Federal Student Loans. Is there any consideration to staying out of jail to NOT default on loans?

Any ideas and suggestions are welcome!

Thanks,

Michael Fields

Dad of four in Traverse City, MI.
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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2008, 05:15:45 PM »

  Re: FOC Arrearages/Lic. Suspension Questions
Posted by: "fathersfitness@aol.com" fathersfitness@aol.com
Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:17 pm (PST)
You will sit in jail until the arrears is paid and then they will garnish your wages and make you work. If you can obtain a attorney do so. Going to school will not stop a judge from jailing you. Good luck finding a lawyer that will give you a constitutional shield. If you can afford the child support than pay it and if you have a relationship with your children pay it. I can tell you for a fact that thses court violate due process procedures everyday. It s all coercive threats and intimidation but you will go to jail if you dont have an attorney.

-----Original Message-----
From: mfield01@baker.edu
To: Fathers-4-Justice@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:49 am
Subject: [Fathers-4-Justice] FOC Arrearages/Lic. Suspension Questions

The FOC of GT County, MI. has sent notice of proposed driver's lic suspension to me this month. Of course this is for arrearages and a bench warrant has been issued. They have unceremoniously tacked on incarceration charges since date of warrant.

Questions:

Would it do any good to attend hearing with an attorney?

Is there a chance in hell of retaining my license and staying out of jail?

Should I just sit in jail and let things accrue until they have no choice but to let me out and address the fact I just cannot afford the support payments.

My rights to four children are all but gone (visitation that was supervised, suspended for some time) All appearences of full term of rights no matter what I do.

Extreme difficulty in obtaining employment. Currently attending college full-time on Federal Student Loans. Is there any consideration to staying out of jail to NOT default on loans?

Any ideas and suggestions are welcome!

Thanks,

Michael Fields

Dad of four in Traverse City, MI.
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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2008, 05:16:29 PM »

  Re: FOC Arrearages/Lic. Suspension Questions
Posted by: "joe jurecki" joejurecki@achildsright.net   joemaflage
Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:36 pm (PST)
Do you have more info on your circumstances such as why you went off work? Was it medical did your job move overseas etc? Have you filed a motion to modify support and what came of it if you did etc
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2008, 05:19:06 PM »

  Re: FOC Arrearages/Lic. Suspension Questions
Posted by: "John Meyer" john.l.meyer@gmail.com   thefever_y2k
Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:59 pm (PST)
Just my suggestion to the OP: if they do put you in jail, I would sit
there. Don't take any sort of work release program or anything of that
nature. Let it accrue and make the county eat the cost of your
incarceration. Moreover, I'd file a request for visitation from your
children. Like these slimeballs are oft to say, child support and child
visitation are two separate issues.
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